Need help diagnosing an off-flavor

sirhelix · 2012-05-26T03:07:18.892873+00:00

Okay, so it's not the yeast causing the soapiness.

The reason we split the batch between 1 week and 3 weeks in primary was to test the "trub" theory... my LBS guy insisted that that had to be the answer. I don't trust his opinion very much any more, to be honest. We got the same flavor in both trials, in fact we preferred bottling straight from primary because it carbonated faster. I love US-05, it flocculates so nicely and the clarity was the same for both batches!

I don't like to ascribe to malice that which can more easily be explained by incompetence, but I will point out that your LHBS guy has a strong incentive to find some explanation that places the blame as far away from himself or his merchandise as possible.

I also had heard that hops can give off soapiness. It is also possible... we could try a different hops. But yeah, we've gotten the same flavor with other hops.

Alrighty, not the hops.

Still, none of this really explains the esters! That's what makes me think it may be aeration after all. (edit: There wasn't much head-space inside those 1-gallon containers.) Do you often get a strong punch of esters on a neutral beer like a blonde ale? If so, how long do you find it takes to clear?

It's possible what you're discerning as estery - fruity/floral - is coming from the hops, and the soapy taste is clouding your palette. Take a cue from programming, and solve the first problem first: fix the soapy issue and see what happens to the esters.

Incidentally, on a neutral blonde ale the esters would most likely come from the yeast. US-05 is supposed to be fairly neutral, but there's a comment in this thread that suggests peach flavor (often hard to put a name to when tasting it out of context) from fermenting US-05 in the low end of its range, as you have.

The Fermentis profile for US-05 says nothing about esters. But you are right at the bottom of the temperature range, so maybe yet another trial at 20C instead of 16?

Mjap52 · 2012-05-25T23:36:46.159633+00:00

Curve-buster.

sirhelix · 2012-05-25T23:25:36.694187+00:00

Underpitching liquid I'd be concerned about, but I wasn't under the impression that even with the un-hydrated dry yeast I was at a real danger of being off-flavor-ly underpitched.

Well, do the math - for a 1.050 beer you want about 187.5 billion cells; a packet of US-05 yields around 232 billion if properly handled. Pitching without rehydrating could mean only 116 billion viable cells. This is underpitching, but probably not to a horribly worrisome degree. I think this is not likely to be your problem unless you also had other symptoms of poor fermentation: sluggish start, high final gravity, etc. Your fermentation was mostly done in a week and complete(-ish) in 3.

Aeration is a big weak spot, which is why I'm leaning towards that as an explanation. What we did basically was to just shake the beer inside the 1 gallon containers. We tried opening the lids to let air in before shaking some more, but I have my doubts. With our normal carboys we've also tried to just shake as best we can, as well as pour from a good height. We're considering buying a paint mixer to add some air in, as I've seen some videos claiming it works well.

I think your aeration is about as good as it usually gets for homebrewers, and therefore unlikely to be the source of your problem.

My LHBS doesn't sell cans of LME, he sells LME out of a big drum. Perhaps the batch was old? Exposed to oxygen? However, I'd think that if it was, he would have heard about it. He is also quite the brewer himself and should recognize if he has crap extract.

Selling it out of a big drum is a good indicator of a problem. You should ask him about the turnover on that extract and ask if he's brewed any (similar) batches with that extract. I'd bring it up in a non-confrontational, have-a-homebrew kind of way and see if he's got any ideas.

I also found some threads online that suggest soapy flavors are caused by the beer sitting on the trub for too long (see How to Brew, chapter 21 and search for "soapy"). This seems unlikely, but perhaps there's another reason the fatty acids in the trub are breaking down and forming soap compounds.

If you're up for one more trial, why don't you make a trial batch using DME or maple syrup instead - go for the same gravity, same IBUs, same yeast, same temp, and the tap water. Maple syrup bought at the store doesn't have the same oxidation problems because the inventory turns over more quickly - just make sure you get 100% maple syrup, none of that Aunt Jemima corn syrup crap with "caramel color" in it. You could probably scale down to a 1-liter batch (scale the yeast, too!) and have it done in less than a week.

The only other item I see as being common to all of these trials is the hops, but presumably you've used other hops and gotten the same soapy results.

sirhelix · 2012-05-25T22:37:59.372673+00:00

Uh, how did you know each batch was "done"? And how did you pitch your yeast? There's a chance that just sprinkling dry into the batch will kill up to 50% of the cells present, so you could be facing underpitching problems.

What are you doing to aerate each batch?

Have you considered that the extract could be the problem?

Just_board · 1 day

No bad beers, just limited editions.

nomdeweb · 1 day

Is it sad that every good news headline prompts me to go to the comments for debunking before bothering to read the story?

Maybe it's just that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

danwin · 1 day

Tradwell here, and for the record I know a little bit of plumbing. Enough to know when to call a plumber and when I can change my own seat washers :-/

But I digress.

Heymarisela · 1 day

no one understand

Well, I got that right away, and it's one of the coolest parts about the whole thing.

Sadly, I'm in VA, but look me up if you're ever near our nation's capitol. There will be a beer (or six) waiting here for you.

Just_board · 1 day

I brewed an American Pale Ale that came out dry, crisp, with great hop flavor and just the right carbonation level, and set aside a case of it for a party. The party was more than a month away, so the case just sat, and sat, and sat.

Fast-forward to the party: everyone wants a beer. So I crack open a chilled 22oz. bomber, and beer sprays everywhere.

Everyone got a beer.

Just_board · 1 day

I think he means the dump valve at the bottom of a conical - he forgot to double-check it was completely closed, poured in 5.5 gallons of wort to ferment, and only realized later that he had beer leaking all over the floor.

Hey, OP - I hope you didn't lose it all.

digiteknique · 1 day

And also try the foaming keg on the other tap; those two tests confirm whether the problem is in the keg or from the keg to the glass.

Heymarisela · 1 day

This is way cooler than mine - a smallish magnetic whiteboard and some colored dry-erase markers. OTOH mine was a 15-minute shopping trip to Staples, so it has that going for it.

Also: you rock for handwriting and artistic abilities. Unless you want to come to my place and print my board for me, I'll have to stick to dry erase pens for now.

crux23 · 2 days

Have you done this before?

Yes.

Is it just a matter of waiting longer to allow the bottles to carbonate on a cold crashed batch than you would a have to wait in normal batch?

Yes.

crux23 · 2 days

I actually read it, and it turns out I read it here: http://www.byo.com/stories/techniques/article/indices/23-clarity/948-just-fine

It's a general comment on fining agents and rising temperature. The quote is specific to isinglass, not gelatin, although IIRC they work on the same principal (long strands of positively charged molecules in the fining agent are attracted to negatively charged hazing molecules in the beer; they flocculate and precipitate).

Parkes says fining is best on a rising temperature. "That’s a tidbit that every English cellarmaster knew but you won’t find written in any technical manual, because it’s something we can’t explain. Chill the beer to a degree or two below serving temperature, then add the isinglass, shake it up to mix well, and allow the temperature to rise for best results," he says.

NeoMoose · 2 days

Burning the rest off might be your best bet.

MisterFlibble · 2 days

No. But stressed yeast are poor carbonators, so maybe your wee yeasties are just all tuckered out.

rtanderson2 · 2 days

Firstly: 164 is awfully high for a mash temp. Is that just the temp of your strike water? What temp are you actually mashing at once all is mixed thoroughly and you are done doughing in?

For small mashes like this, you shouldn't need to stir during the mash.

Have you tried double-batch sparging - splitting your sparge water into two sparge steps?

When I batch sparge - I get a reliable 83% efficiency - I try to run off a little less than full speed. My mash temp is usually between 150ºF and 158ºF. I vorlauf with 2-3 quarts of wort, whatever it takes to get clear runnings, and then let that run off. The rest sounds about right to me.

You might also check that your gravity readings are accurate.

mrpena · 2 days

Yes. Check the "Carbonation" link in the sidebar.

Let me know if that's not helpful enough, and I'll see what I can do to be more specific.

jcm267 · 2 days

I ordered from them a while ago, had it shipped UPS ground. That was $10.61 to me in Virginia. I think they charge more for USPS Priority Mail.

rjparjay · 2 days

Tough to tell just from looking at the pellicle. Maybe lacto?

You should sample, sniff, and taste, and see whether you have off flavors, and which ones they are. That will help identify the infection.

jcm267 · 2 days

And on pellets. $10 per pound of cascade, compared to $13 at Northern Brewer. Might be worth it if you were buying other things from NB and took advantage of flat-rate shipping, but if you're just buying hops - buy from hopsdirect.

howiez · 2 days

Arsenic

Meh, toss in a chelating agent along with your other finings. Right?

stealth1129 · 2 days

You'll be fine. Before you go, top up with star-san or mix vodka with water.

Even if your airlock runs dry there's likely very little impact to the beer.

Rudiger036 · 2 days

There are no bad beers, only limited editions.

Get a calculator that takes wort density into account when figuring out IBUs, and check your BU:GU ratio. You'll want it above 1.0, so that means minimum 195 IBUs. Hop utilization decreases with wort density, so consider adding your adjunct sugar (DME, dextrose, table sugar, whatever) near flameout.

2 vials of yeast is not enough. I am assuming this is a 5-gallon batch. My rules of thumb say you need 975 billion cells (assuming 1 million/ml pitching rate on 5 gallons/20,000 ml). A single vial of WLP contains about 125 billion cells, so you need nearly 8 vials. I would read carefully these instructions: http://www.whitelabs.com/gravity.html

You may have trouble with bottle conditioning, so consider force-carbing this one if you can.

IMHO there's no point in "continuously hopping" a la DFH, unless your manufacturing process is more efficient that way. Instead, I'd back up your 40 and 50 minute additions to 60 minutes, move your 30 and 20 minute additions to 15, and move your 10 minute addition to flameout. This is far less complicated and will yield more flavor and aroma on the late additions and more bitterness on the bittering hops.

On the malt bill, you may want to toss in 8-12 ounces of roasted barley to help with head retention; IIRC high-alcohol beers produce less stable bubbles. But double-check me on that.

Good luck!

crux23 · 2 days

No. Unless you filter the beer, there will be more than enough yeast in suspension to carbonate the beer, slowly, after bottling. It takes about 1 million cells per ml for the beer to appear cloudy because of yeast; less than this and the haze from yeast isn't really noticeable, but the yeast is still there.

However, looks like OP force carbs, so this won't be an issue.

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