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[–]Booost 27 points28 points ago

Succinct and a great sentiment. Since Stonewall, the T has been a huge part of the LGBT rights movement, and that unity has been lacking of late. Working together is the best way to ensure we're all upgraded to first class citizens. Leaving part of the community behind because of any kind of bigotry is possibly even worse than discrimination against LGB(T) people by the wider community. Let's keep it together, all.

[–]Arkkon 30 points31 points ago

Where would we be without "T?" We'd be nowhere. "T" started everything with Stonewall. People forget that, and they shouldn't.

[–]myhatekillsworlds 1 point2 points ago

"Who started Stonewall" is ultimately a really silly argument because it is impossible to pinpoint. Was it the drag queen? Was it the so-called "butch" lesbian? It all comes down to the fact that everyone joined forces against a common enemy and brought it down.

[–]matriarchythe oncoming storm 17 points18 points ago

Trans* people threw the first bricks at the Stonewall riot. We've been there every step of the way in the fight for inclusion and rights. Don't you fucking dare forget our common history and struggles.

We all transgress the hetero and/or cis normative narratives in some fashion. We're all in this together, stop trying to throw people under the bus in order to get in with status quo. Don't abandon your siblings.

[–]Inequilibrium 16 points17 points ago

I have to say, nothing pisses me off more than LGBT infighting. The discrimination we face is all so similar, yet somehow they seem to be the most likely to discriminate against each other as well. You'd think they'd understand what prejudice and intolerance feels like.

Transphobic LGBs, cisphobic Ts, biphobic LGs, homophobic Bs... all of them have come up recently in some way or another even on this subreddit, which is (or was) relatively accepting and inclusive. It's just so stupid to still have those assumptions about what people can and can't be.

[–]RichardDorkins 2 points3 points ago

Transphobic LGBs, cisphobic Ts, biphobic LGs, homophobic Bs

one of these four is not like the others

[–][deleted] ago*

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[–]amanitus -2 points-1 points ago

It's just homophobic bisexuals is a bit of an oxymoron. Or at least, it seems equally as likely as homophobic homosexuals.

[–]Inequilibrium 2 points3 points ago*

There are homophobic bisexuals. Some bisexuals consider their same-sex relationships to be "inferior" to their opposite sex ones, and believe they can only have a truly valid relationship with someone of the opposite sex. That's what I consider homophobia.

Someone posted about their experience with a guy like this on r/lgbt recently, and it unfortunately opened the floodgates for a lot of generalisations and biphobia. Hopefully, this is a very rare occurrence, and it definitely should not be used to judge bisexuality as a whole (because a sexuality has nothing to do with being an asshole), but it still happens.

[–]JRutterbush -1 points0 points ago

That's what I consider homophobia.

That's not homophobia, that's personal preference. Bisexuality isn't always a strict 50% straight, 50% gay thing. For some people, there is a distinct split between a sexually preferred gender and a romantically preferred one. Some people can find one gender sexually attractive while still only being able to connect romantically with the other.

There's nothing inherently wrong or homophobic about that, it's just the way they are. Now, if they see all same-sex relationships as somehow inferior, then you might have a point.

[–]Inequilibrium 2 points3 points ago

No, I'm not talking about personal preferences. Preferring one to the other doesn't matter. I'm talking about people who, regardless of their attractions, view same-sex relationships/love as inferior to opposite-sex relationships/love, and believe they cannot have a satisfying life with a long-term same-sex partner.

You don't have to explain to me of all people that bisexuality is complicated and actually consists of many different dimensions. It's certainly not 50/50 for me - I don't even think it's necessarily accurate to view it as a percentage of each. One issue is that few people distinguish between how attracted to a person of a particular gender someone is, and how frequently someone is attracted to people of that gender. I have to in order to understand my own sexuality.

[–]JRutterbush -1 points0 points ago

...and believe they cannot have a satisfying life with a long-term same-sex partner.

There is nothing wrong with this. Like I was trying to explain; if you are only purely physically attracted to a person, then no, you can't have a satisfying life with that person in the long-term. Well, unless sex is all you care about. That's my point: there are people who honestly can't have a long-term romantic relationship with a same-sex partner.

The only time this becomes a problem is when they try to enforce this view on other people who may not feel the same way.

[–]Inequilibrium 0 points1 point ago

Yeah, again, I'm not talking about, say, men who are less attracted to men than women in any way. I'm talking about men who have the capability for complete physical and romantic attraction to both sexes, but choose to be with a woman because they think a relationship with a man would be of lesser value. As in, someone who would leave their boyfriend over it, regardless of how good the relationship had been.

[–]myhatekillsworlds 0 points1 point ago

Oh rest assured, there are plenty of those two; most of them in complete denial about their same-sex attraction or with deep-seated self-hatred.

[–]amanitus 0 points1 point ago

That's a sad truth I didn't consider.

[–]lazyjayshiny 6 points7 points ago

Thank you for this. :)

And for those who don't get it... I'm sure understanding will come with age and experience.

[–]Atheist1994Social Justice, Loudly Demanding Equality 2 points3 points ago

Thanks. Excellent post :D

[–]lordkantiHarmony 5 points6 points ago

I entered thinking this would be a post claiming that we were holding the LGB's back. Upon reading the sentiment of the post, my heart feels very warm. Thank you. :')

[–]Dean_K1 3 points4 points ago

As a "T" myself, I feel very accepted by the local LGBs in my area. As of yet, I've met no other transgendered people, and rely on the support of the LGB(There are no Ts around here...) community. Sexuality, in many cases, involves gender, and gender has been known to affect sexuality. The two do coincide enough to warrant bondage.

[–]FrogsOblivious 3 points4 points ago

well said.

[–]cccmikey 5 points6 points ago*

We would be mosly undersandable, bu no perfec. We need the Ts. In more ways than one. Except for those big ones on the roof perhaps. They can be problematic.

[–]lazyjayshiny 0 points1 point ago

Oh Chris.

[–]LaurelaiSocial Justice, Loudly Demanding Equality 5 points6 points ago

Thank you so much for saying this.

[–]youresayingitwrongfemme bisexual -4 points-3 points ago

Completely off topic - how do I get flair?

[–]Inequilibrium 4 points5 points ago

I don't think people here really disagree with this. By and large, LGB redditors have been a lot more informed and accepting about transgender people than the average population, or even the average LGB community. Nobody wants to exclude trans people or treat transphobia differently to homophobia or biphobia. We have access to a lot more immediately available information about transgender people than most do, through this community.

Whenever someone says something contrary to this, I think they've been met with universally scathing responses. That's really not the core of what's been going on here the past few days. I do think people are feeling that there has been disproportionate hostility from some trans redditors, though - many people, including myself (and I don't even know if I'm cis or trans), have said nothing transphobic, but still been subject to attacks from them. Everyone is being blamed for the actions of a few trolls.

[–]matriarchythe oncoming storm 0 points1 point ago

You and others have picked up the banner to defend people who have been legitimately called out for being transphobic. Trans* posters have been hostile because we've been pointing it out for quite some time yet each and every person that responds to us must have us hold their hands and walk them through from the beginning.

Perhaps, if ya'll just apologized and moved on instead of getting 'oh so mad' when trans* posters and allies ask (general) ya'll to correct + move on, there wouldn't be a "hysterical" backlash.

[–]Inequilibrium 4 points5 points ago*

You and others have picked up the banner to defend people who have been legitimately called out for being transphobic.

No. No, I haven't. In fact, I've called out multiple users on their transphobia recently. I am not defending any transphobes, including those who have now been banned. They can fuck right off.

I am, however, criticising some members of this community who happen to be trans, and the actions of the mods which I feel are taking us down a very unfriendly, unwelcoming path.

I have nothing to apologise for. I've seen other users and communities getting unfairly attacked with no justification and no evidence of the claims made against them. Hate is bad no matter which side it's coming from. And I've seen far more hurtful, offensive, even bigoted comments coming from the trans side of this than anywhere else. That's what prompted my involvement. They are right to say that defending transphobes is not acceptable. But that's not what this is about.

[–]matriarchythe oncoming storm 3 points4 points ago

You are "critiquing" the mods and trans* persons for reacting to transphobia. Being called a bigot is in no way, shape or form comparable to having bigoted comments drilled at you non-stop online and offline: stop trying to compare them.

[–]Inequilibrium 1 point2 points ago*

You are "critiquing" the mods and trans* persons for reacting to transphobia.

No. I'm critiquing them FOR THE NATURE OF THEIR REACTIONS to the transphobia, and also to other recent events, which were not in themselves transphobic in nature. Not the fact that they were trying to prevent/punish transphobia.

The fact that they are trying to reduce transphobia (a perfectly good intention) does NOT make them immune to criticism and does not make those who point out problems transphobic. (Yet those people have been constantly accused of transphobia.) People who are against transphobia can still be bad people in other ways. For example, Laurelai has made a number of highly bigoted comments towards me and other users here.

Being called a bigot is in no way, shape or form comparable to having bigoted comments drilled at you non-stop online and offline: stop trying to compare them.

And please don't pretend I am or group me in with the people who are doing so. I played absolutely no part in the original debates over trans people and transphobia, and have said very little about them, except to continue reminding people why they should not use the word "tranny".

Edit: And fuck, yes, be as offended as you want when they do, you have every right to be. But many of those people do not understand why it's offensive, and those people do not have malicious or hurtful intent. Please don't treat them the same way as the ones who do. And yes, ignorant people should educate themselves, but usually ignorant people do not know that they are ignorant. When they do, they tend to be polite about it. The best posts on that subject were the ones that actually said something of value as to why that word should not be used.

[–][deleted] ago

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[–]blackmoon918 16 points17 points ago

Wanting to be the opposite gender on the outside and being attracted to the same/both genders have nothing to do with each other.

Sure, this is a fair point. But the fact is that there is so much cross-over between the two camps. Most trans people, barring the few that came out early, either have, or do, identify as gay, lesbian, bisexual, or pansexual. The vast majority of trans people are attracted to both genders (bisexual or pansexual). Of those that aren't attracted to both genders, the majority are attracted to the same gender (gay or lesbian.) Of the few remaining heterosexual trans people, most have, before transitioning, identified as gay or lesbian.

Even if we were to exclude the "T" from GLBT, we would not lose many trans people.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points ago

You're on the right track, but...

Most trans people, barring the few that came out early, either have, or do, identify as gay, lesbian, bisexual, or pansexual.

When a trans person comes out has sweet fuck all to do with their sexuality.

[–]blackmoon918 0 points1 point ago

The point I was trying to make was, most heterosexual trans people have identified as gay or lesbian before they realized that they were trans. However, a few heterosexual trans people who came to the realization that they were trans when they were much younger, and never had the chance to identify as gay or lesbian.

[–]Brodiferus 2 points3 points ago

this is phenomenally well said. Thank you!

[–]lazyjayshiny 0 points1 point ago

Thank you!

[–]selorn 18 points19 points ago

No, it's totally not like the underlying reasons for homophobia and transphobia (defying gender stereotypes and roles) are the same.

Wait, they totally are!