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Jon Arryn's wards (self.asoiaf)
submitted 3 months ago* by DaveNF
Recently I have been reading a lot about Robert's Rebellion and realized I didn't know why Robert Baratheon or Eddard Stark were Jon Arryn's wards in the first place. Do we know or did I miss something in the books?
[–]BrandynSandLord Zoidberg, why not? 51 points52 points53 points 3 months ago
Jon Arryn was a powerful man with no children. Sending Ned and Robert to foster with him was advantageous for the North and the Stormlands because it built a positive relationship with the Lord of the Vale, one which proved to be quite valuable. It was advantageous for Ned and Robert because the former was a second son and the latter's parents had died tragically. They'd get more attention from Jon than they would from their parents at home. Finally, it was advantageous for Jon Arryn because it put him on good terms with two kingdoms of relatively equal power to his and he probably enjoyed having the boys around. Fostering Robert was particularly valuable since he was already Lord of the Stormlands at that point. If his parents had lived, Stannis would have probably been sent to foster in his stead.
[–]Lampmonster1 47 points48 points49 points 3 months ago
There's a funny thought. What if Stannis had grown up with Ned. They probably would have been fast friends, having so much in common. Both second sons. Both rather cold. Ned was shy when younger and Stannis has never been good with people. Here's the crazy part though. Ned would have been the wild one of the two.
[–]BrandynSandLord Zoidberg, why not? 99 points100 points101 points 3 months ago
I bet they'd have had plenty of rousing discussions about being dutiful.
[–]mcinthedormBog Devil 99 points100 points101 points 3 months ago
This one time I was so sober...
[–]behm28 74 points75 points76 points 3 months ago
...and deeply pondering the implications of my actions.
[–]evanthesquirrel 68 points69 points70 points 3 months ago
I did what was just and honorable, man you should have been there
[–]behm28 42 points43 points44 points 3 months ago
Actually I was off being honorable as well!
[–]BrandynSandLord Zoidberg, why not? 54 points55 points56 points 3 months ago
"Stannis, if you had the choice between making passionate love with the fairest maiden in the seven kingdoms or fulfilling your duty to the realm, which would you choose?"
"Oh Ned, you're quite the joker. If I knew how to laugh, I would."
[–]Lampmonster1 36 points37 points38 points 3 months ago
And oh the games they'd play!
Ned "Tag, you're it!"
Stannis "Well, if I must be it, then it is my duty. I shall be it."
Ned "Sigh"
[–]doot_doot 7 points8 points9 points 3 months ago
the two cold introverts probably wouldn't have been friends at all. robert befriended ned. stannis and ned would have hardly talked, i would think.
[–]EndLegend 4 points5 points6 points 3 months ago
They're not introverts. Stannis just doesn't give a fuck and Ned likes to think of what he says and does.
[–]doot_doot 4 points5 points6 points 3 months ago
Who are you, Westeros psychologist? My diagnosis stands!
[–]ihaveaninjaForgotten 9 points10 points11 points 3 months ago
maybe not, people sometimes often dislike others who are like them self and are attracted to their opposites.
[–]EndLegend 0 points1 point2 points 3 months ago
Stannis is fine with people, he feels it to be gaudy doing those things. I also think it is kingly to expect things to go your way, which Stannis did with Renly. Its why Balon would never have considered allying with Robb. He worded it like a king to a king. They hold a certain respect for each other and they also acknowledge their faults.
[–]Lampmonster1 5 points6 points7 points 3 months ago
Stannis is fine with people
I think we must have read different books. The Stannis I read about has no friends, doesn't even get along with his wife and brothers, and cannot raise an army due to his inability to get people to follow him.
He just hates it. I saw him as fully understanding that he wasn't liked. He seems to think it as pointless, but we know he will do it when needed as can be seen from his the northern clans that joined him.
[–]Lampmonster1 2 points3 points4 points 3 months ago
The Northern clans that followed him because he followed Jon's advice. Stannis doesn't get people. I'm not saying he's shy, I'm saying he's no good and understanding what motivates everyone but him. He can't connect.
[–]ihaveaninjaForgotten 0 points1 point2 points 3 months ago
This is basically what GRRM said in an e-mail posted here: http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1202/ (last question), though I'm not sure how to verify it's authenticity and it's dated 2002
[–]OrysBaratheonMine is the Fury 12 points13 points14 points 3 months ago
I see a few people have mentioned this theory or parts of it, but here it is in its entirety: http://towerofthehand.com/blog/2012/01/05-southron-ambitions/index.html
Explains all of the interactions of the major houses prior to Robert's Rebellion. The wardship of Eddard and Robert, the marriages of the Tully women and Lannister twins, etc. Excellent read, it really puts the events of Robert's Rebellion in perspective.
[–]dubyadubya 1 point2 points3 points 3 months ago
Wow, I mean he stretches on a few things, but a lot of this fits in almost too perfectly. I had never thought about all the intermarrying that was suddenly happening. I had wondered before, if there was so much intermarrying of first sons and daughters, surely there wouldn't still be "7 kingdom" after thousands of years? At least a few of them would have melded into one by that point. This sudden upswing in powerhouse marriages was obviously intended for some purpose, and "southron ambitions," or simply getting Aerys's crazy ass off the throne, probably nails it on the head.
[–]ungoogleableThe Black Dragon 1 point2 points3 points 3 months ago
I had wondered before, if there was so much intermarrying of first sons and daughters, surely there wouldn't still be "7 kingdom" after thousands of years? At least a few of them would have melded into one by that point.
To be fair, there used to be lots of tiny kingdoms that slowly merged over time into seven. Then the Targaryens came, conquered six of the kingdoms, and married into the seventh, creating one real kingdom. The pace of it is unrealistically slow, though.
Good point. And I'm sure houses zealously guard their names, I wasn't considering how many kids and relations most houses have, so having a house with no male heir to carry on the name is probably pretty rare, be it a son or some kind of distant relation. And since I now know that in normal times they tend to stick within their own "kingdoms" it somewhat negates my idea anyway.
[–]watso1rlThe Winter Wolf -2 points-1 points0 points 3 months ago
That essay has way too much speculation for my liking. Rickard probably did have Southron ambitions, but everything else in that essay is fabricated from thin air.
[–]Poser1313The Crow 15 points16 points17 points 3 months ago*
Probably has something to do with Rickard's Southron ambitions. There's evidence in the text as well as speculation that Rickard Stark, Jon Arryn, Hoster Tully and the Baratheons were together plotting some kind of alliance since the War of the Ninepenny Kings. You can throw the Lannisters in there too actually. This is why Jaime was to be married to Lysa, Brandon to Cat, Lyanna to Robert, and why Ned & Robert fostered with Jon.
[–]kuffara 10 points11 points12 points 3 months ago*
You just mentioned 5 of the 7 major houses, with the Targaryans and Dorne as outliers. I'm not sure why your alliance isn't just evidence of power being kept in places of power. Tywin also wanted to marry . And with Myrcella being sent to Dorne, we complete the circle. I just think it's evidence of ruling families keeping control of all the power in Westeros.
EDIT: Ok you guys, I get it. You all bring up great points. I will say the transfer of power and the illusion of power in ASOIAF is for sure a huge motif and clearly cannot be summed up simply.
[–]d3_crescentia 20 points21 points22 points 3 months ago
It's an up and coming theory, and it was one of the better ones I've read in the whole. Unfortunately I can't find the original, so I'll try my best to recite the theory as best as I can:
Based on all of these, (my summary of) the original author suggests that something significant was in the works by all of the great houses for the political landscape of Westeros. I think it's particularly interesting and has a LOT of merit.
Hopefully someone can find it. >_>
[–]rabble-rouserLord of the Last Hearth 10 points11 points12 points 3 months ago
Here's the Essay on it, and well as the original post to r/asoiaf. Personally, I think this is one of the better theories out there. Makes a lot of sense, and it doesn't change much for the future of the books, but reveals a past that is more politically grey than before.
[–]justbeanejustdayne 11 points12 points13 points 3 months ago
Spoiler-ish
[–]MSobriquetSword of Mourning 0 points1 point2 points 3 months ago
actually it was the cause of said argument
[–]justbeanejustdayne 3 points4 points5 points 3 months ago
Not really. It was more about Spoiler
[–]synoptycUnshielded Onion 2 points3 points4 points 3 months ago
[–]ServerOfJustice 4 points5 points6 points 3 months ago
There are 9 major houses, not 7. The Greyjoys and Tyrells were not a part of this plot either.
[–]kuffara 6 points7 points8 points 3 months ago
You're right, I was just thinking of the Seven Kingdoms.
[–]Poser1313The Crow 4 points5 points6 points 3 months ago*
Keep in mind Barbary Dustin's conversation with Theon in ADWD. Spoilers
Also, Myrcella being sent to Dorne is not really relevant to alliances before Robert's Rebellion?
[–]kuffara 1 point2 points3 points 3 months ago
Interesting, thank you for elaborating. I stand corrected.
[–]Poser1313The Crow 0 points1 point2 points 3 months ago
I should have in the first place :p
[–]watso1rlThe Winter Wolf 2 points3 points4 points 3 months ago
Pure speculation, but who would Ned had married if Brandon lived. Maybe Cersei?
[–]Poser1313The Crow 6 points7 points8 points 3 months ago
Doubt it, Ned only got Cat because he got bumped up in the succession to Winterfell with the death of his father and brother. He probably would have married to a lesser house, like Stannis (the younger brother) did.
Also, no way the ambitious Tywin would have married Cersei to anyone without a big inheritance to go with it. Think about his first few picks for her: Rheagar Targaryen - heir to the throne, and then Robert Baratheon - King.
[–]watso1rlThe Winter Wolf 4 points5 points6 points 3 months ago
Yeah, he probably would've been stuck marrying one of those Mormont behemoths.
Then again, Rickard was ambitious.
[–]doot_doot 1 point2 points3 points 3 months ago
also it was the custom for the brother to marry promised bride if elder died
[–]beesburyDinner is Coming 3 points4 points5 points 3 months ago
Ashara Dayne?
[–]kuffara 10 points11 points12 points 3 months ago
Wasn't it common for boys of lesser houses to become wards and then squires for larger ones? Ned was the second son of a powerful house, and Robert was the eldest of a less powerful one.
[–]ServerOfJustice 19 points20 points21 points 3 months ago
The North and the Stormlands are equally prestigious titles.
[–]ColonelFlashmanThe Chequy Lion 16 points17 points18 points 3 months ago
The Baratheons are the least powerful, wealthy or ancient of the families of the 7 Kingdoms.
[–]ServerOfJustice 21 points22 points23 points 3 months ago
They're the youngest, but where is it said that they are the least powerful or wealthy?
Regardless, what I meant is that the Stormlands and the North are both Lords Paramount, the highest title of nobility beneath King in Westeros.
[–]ColonelFlashmanThe Chequy Lion 10 points11 points12 points 3 months ago
Well we can work out they are the least wealthy based on the fact they have no major towns or ports like the other kingdoms and it is not said that they have extensive mines like the Westerlands or large amounts of farmland like the Riverland or Reach for export.
In terms of power, there are stats floating around on this subreddit and on the westeros forums that show they have the least military manpower, aside from Dorne sorry, having been worked out from the numbers of men that Stannis and Renly field etc. It could well be because in terms of the Stormlands we haven't seen very much and GRRM is yet to flesh the area out.
[–]BrandynSandLord Zoidberg, why not? 18 points19 points20 points 3 months ago
I don't think the Stormlands are necessarily the poorest kingdom. They're definitely the youngest kingdom and probably the second to last in terms of military strength (Dorne is clearly last), but there's not enough information to determine their wealth. No major cities, but GRRM has said that their lands aren't poor here. The North, for example, has a major city but White Harbor is the smallest of the cities in Westeros and there are vast expanses of land that simply can't be fertile given the climate.
[–]metakniteSepton 0 points1 point2 points 3 months ago
At the end of the series when the seasons are normalized, will the North become the richest region? They currently represent half the land-mass of Westeros.
[–]theryman 1 point2 points3 points 3 months ago
Yes, land covered in snow and loosely populated. In real life terms, Canada is huge but not very good for agriculture because it is so cold and loosely populated in areas. Now when Westeros starts using oil, THEN the Starks will be rish.
[–]JWrundle 1 point2 points3 points 3 months ago
I'm pretty sure the stromlands are an agriculture region... lots of money in food
But the Starks carry the title of Warden of the North, and the Arryns have always been the Wardens of the East.
[–]beesburyDinner is Coming 0 points1 point2 points 3 months ago
and Lannisters are Wardens of the West -- who is the South, the Tyrells? Martells?
[–]TeamRamrod 1 point2 points3 points 3 months ago
Tyrells
Thanks! I could have googled, I realize... <facepalm>
[–]watso1rlThe Winter Wolf 0 points1 point2 points 3 months ago
[–]himynameisjoe 0 points1 point2 points 3 months ago
Before the Baratheons took charge of the Stormlands, the Storm Kings ruled and had a kingdom that had control of the Riverlands for a time. They wouldn't have been able to do that if their lands were poor.
[–]ColonelFlashmanThe Chequy Lion 0 points1 point2 points 3 months ago
True, the Mudd/Ironmen/Stormking control of the Riverlands is a bit murky and I have a feeling that GRRM has contradicted himself in a few places with regards to this.
[–]ungoogleableThe Black Dragon 0 points1 point2 points 3 months ago
I think it's just that the Riverlands are hard to defend and so get taken over fairly often.
[–]cycoTotally Trustworthy 5 points6 points7 points 3 months ago
Also, Robert's parents died at a young age, so he needed a noble father figure.
[–][deleted] 3 months ago
[deleted]
[–]notakoalabearShaggydog 0 points1 point2 points 3 months ago
Stannis was the middle child.
[–]wardmuylaertYou Know Nothing 1 point2 points3 points 3 months ago
Robert was older than Stannis.
[–]Hyaku-ShikiMY CHEQUY WATER 0 points1 point2 points 3 months ago
Woops, you're right. Complete scumbag brain moment.
[–]Hello-GingeKissed by Fire 4 points5 points6 points 3 months ago
You know what, for some reason I've always thought Stannis was older, and that was one the reasons he was so bitter (his younger brother getting a better title because he took it by force). This is the first time I've realised he was younger than Robert. I feel so stupid.
[–]beesburyDinner is Coming 12 points13 points14 points 3 months ago
Even though I know Stannis is younger, my brain ALWAYS codes him as older. You're not alone.
[–]eduffyThick as a Castle Wall 3 points4 points5 points 3 months ago
But that is the reason he's bitter. His younger brother Renly was made lord of the Stormlands, while he was stuck at dragonstone. Even after he protected and held storm's end through a year-long siege.
[–]ServerOfJustice 2 points3 points4 points 3 months ago
Fostering was a very common practice among medieval lords.
The idea was that they would grow up in the model of the person they were being raised by. Mostly, it was diplomatic though. Sending your child to be raised by someone was a sign of trust and admiration.
[–]ckingdomThoughts in Italics 5 points6 points7 points 3 months ago
Wards are wind.
[–]DaveNF[S] 0 points1 point2 points 3 months ago
Thanks for all the information.
[–]yosoyguamValar Morghulis 0 points1 point2 points 3 months ago
http://towerofthehand.com/blog/2012/01/05-southron-ambitions/index.html
[–]ColonelFlashmanThe Chequy Lion -8 points-7 points-6 points 3 months ago*
We knew this.
Edit: Don't understand why you scrotes are downvoting. My reply was one of the first to him. Reddiquette, peeps.
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[–]BrandynSandLord Zoidberg, why not? 51 points52 points53 points ago
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