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Why is the creative direction for most Star Wars stuff so awful? [Not trolling] (self.StarWars)

submitted ago* by polynomials

I am actually a fan of Star Wars and I really enjoyed the original movies. Knights of the Old Republic and the recently released Star War: The Old Republic are both great games.

But I wish I could be a bigger fan. This Penny Arcade post is what really made me ask this. There are the Red Letter Media reviews of Ep. 1-3 that are as long as the movies themselves all focusing on how awful they are, which convinced me that they are possibly the worst three movies ever made.

One thing in particular that bothers me is how every little detail of the original movies has to be exaggerated into something canonical. The technology of the galaxy has not really changed or improved in THOUSANDS of years since the beginning of the Republic? The Imperial soldiers are still wearing basically the same uniforms, and flying basically the same ships for millennia?

Or Bothans. "Many Bothans died to bring us this information." Did they really need to become an entire race of people that are dedicated to espionage and political intrigue? There are several reasons this makes no sense. But the point is, why couldn't that just be left as just a small detail that adds flavor of the universe to the context of the conversation, rather than being turned into canonical race of spymasters?

Of course it's not any one of these things that bothers me so much as all of them put together. I really want to enjoy this stuff because it is interesting in a lot of ways (particularly the question of why one would not want to be Sith) but I keep coming across things that are unfathomably dumb. Sometimes I feel like the various people creating in Star Wars endeavor to have as little subtlety or realism as they possibly can (see "Greedo shot first" controversy for a prime example), in favor of cynical fan-service and marketing.

edit: Can anyone point me to some of the better written and presented stuff?

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[–]korvanos 7 points8 points ago

Why is the creative direction for most Star Wars stuff so awful?

George wants the series to appeal to children.

There are the Red Letter Media reviews of Ep. 1-3 that are as long as the movies themselves all focusing on how awful they are, which convinced me that they are possibly the worst three movies ever made.

I wouldn't go that far. If they weren't trying to live up to the original movies (which also have their share of problems) we'd probably go easier on them.

One thing in particular that bothers me is how every little detail of the original movies has to be exaggerated into something canonical. The technology of the galaxy has not really changed or improved in THOUSANDS of years since the beginning of the Republic? The Imperial soldiers are still wearing basically the same uniforms, and flying basically the same ships for millennia?

Some of this I can buy. You reach a point with technology where you're only going to be making incremental gains, due to the nature of physical materials. We're already getting close to that with microprocessor technology. There's no guarentee we'll keep developing new tech at an exponential level.

And different societies are different. Some societies just sort of stagnate. Japan did it intentionally for hundreds of years.

Did they really need to become an entire race of people that are dedicated to espionage and political intrigue?

Yeah that sort of thing is really stupid. Star Wars did it with a lot of races, and Star Trek is just as guilty most of the time.

Sometimes I feel like the various people creating in Star Wars endeavor to have as little subtlety or realism as they possibly can, in favor of cynical fan-service and marketing.

They go with what works I think. And they're mostly after children to buy toys and watch movies. hollywood doesn't think adults like deep well written sci fi, and for the most of society they're correct.

[–]dannyboylee 3 points4 points ago*

George wants the series to appeal to children.

Ah, that explains the scene where Anakin gets burned alive on the shore of a lava flow.

[–]korvanos -1 points0 points ago

Ah, that explains the scene where Anakin gets burned alive on the shore of a lava flow.

American children.

[–]polynomials[S] 3 points4 points ago*

Some of this I can buy. You reach a point with technology where you're only going to be making incremental gains, due to the nature of physical materials. We're already getting close to that with microprocessor technology. There's no guarentee we'll keep developing new tech at an exponential level.

And different societies are different. Some societies just sort of stagnate. Japan did it intentionally for hundreds of years.

I would buy this except that I don't get the feeling that they are actually thinking about that. It's more like, "The "Boba Fett was a bounty hunter and had a jet pack. He wore this type of helmet. Therefore all bounty hunters for thousands of years before Boba Fett wear the Boba Fett helmet and have jet packs. Because that's what people expect to see because they are so obsessed with the original movies."

Star Wars did it with a lot of races, and Star Trek is just as guilty most of the time.

Star Trek can be guilty of some silliness, but at least they often try to handwave away some of the silliness with technojargon or semi-realistic scientific/sociopolitical concepts. And it will be fairly convincing if you don't try to get too detailed with it, like most sci-fi.

hollywood doesn't think adults like deep well written sci fi, and for the most of society they're correct.

:(

[–]antjanus 2 points3 points ago

Agreed on the first part. People are so stuck on the movies that they try to make everything dance/work around them. It'd be amazing to go further into the future, make the entire saga collapse on itself, start new, start with new tech, new social behavior, new races etc. but that's basically just creating an entire new universe.

I've been reading Star Wars books/stories/comics and playing games for years and it truly is fascinating that over the course of 30K years, nothing much has changed. Check out the star wars timeline: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline_of_galactic_history Hyperdrive was invented/widely used in 25K BBY, first Jedi school was founded, first hyperspace routes established, and a ton of designs were already established then (for ships, armor, vessels, etc.) then 10K years nothing, and by that time we already have a republic in place, a galactic society, species joining together, Jedis firmly established (as well as most of their teachings, and their wardrobe), most of the galactic map settled (as far as up to New Hope is concerned). Jedi lightsabers lose their batteries and so on. Every once in a while there is a war, Mandalorians rise by 7K BBY (7.5K years later) which basically establishes their identity forever. Wars are perpetual, there is always a republic that talks about prosperity and greatness but nothing happens.

Those are some mighty jumps. Star Wars human characters live out natural lives, about 70-80 years so there is no "let's take our time with this" kind of feeling about it. Logically, it doesn't make sense. Otherwise, everything that came before the original 3 movies tries to explain EVERYTHING that goes on in those movies from Darth Bane establishing the base for the Sith Empire and the 2 person rule (1K BBY I think) to Mandalorians establishing Boba Fetts identity in 7K BBY onward, to the Ebon Hawk establishing the basis for Millenium Falcon's design, to god-knows-what. All details are described even why Hoth was called Hoth (after a Jedi, General Hoth). It's ridiculous. It's as if the entire society waited for the Battle of Yavin. Everything progress slowly, very incrimentally, creating a delicate "butterfly effect" back story.

Like I said, it'd be nice to move on, move forward (1000 ABY maybe? conquering a second galaxy? a new threat beyond Sith? A new philosophy? Religion?) and leave the movies behind as a reminder of what was and build on that. I'd love to see something new in the Star Wars universe, maybe something less Fantasy like (Star Wars reminds me a lot LOTR where they have a bunch of "ages" each lasting thousands of years yet they've no idea how to insulate their homes better and make anything other than swords) to something more "Sci-fi" like.

[–]Arrakiv 2 points3 points ago

Honestly, as much as I hate to say anything disparaging about a universe I enjoy so much, yeah, I agree. I think an awful lot of the EU is very guilty of trying to emulate the films as much as possible, and I do think that the whole universe is worse off for it as a universe. It isn't something that you just find in the past, too. Most of the EU set after the movies have tried to call back to them as much as possible. Heck, look at the basic set up of the Legacy comics (disclaimer: I've never actually read those comics, which is bad form for me calling it out, but still). You'll find the basic set up of the movies mirrored time and time again.

The problem is, as a franchise everything is proceeding along as most fans would expect and hope. We're reliving the same stories, learning more about all those cool characters, and seeing a giant mythological history filled with epic stuff. As much as I'd like to see a lot of depth, for the most part, everything is just trying to be "Star Wars". I can't really begrudge that, I guess.

Regarding races... Vast numbers of alien species exist in Star Wars that have very little substance to them. They have a single gimmick, and that's about it. This is often because any character from any race is pretty much considered to be the absolute most average, default person ever from that species. Then again, some are just straight up designed to be like that.

The thing that I find depressing is that you could easily combine a few EU species, that are probably incredibly similar anyway, and probably get something more interesting on an individual level than any of them separately.

A lot of aspects of the Star Wars Universe are like that. In some ways, it makes everything feel very large and grand, but at the same time, I would love to have more detailed species and planets that weren't based around a gimmick or two.

Oh, and I don't think skipping ahead a thousand years would fix things up much. It would take a real reboot, I'd say. And that won't happen (and I don't know if I'd want it to).

On a random note, Star Wars is much more of a Fantasy-in-Spaaaaaace than it is Sci-Fi. So, the comparison to LotR is apt, and in some ways, entirely fitting of a fantasy setting. Still, 30,000 years is long even by a lot of Fantasy standards.

Meh. Stuff like this has bothered me for a long time. Not enough to turn me away from Star Wars or anything, and I don't think it is all that big of a deal. A setting is sort of what you make of it. I'm a giant nerd (not much of a thing to admit in /r/starwars). I've played tabletop Star Wars games and MUSHs and I often will play fairly shallow species just to have fun fleshing them out more in interesting ways. I ignore parts of the EU I don't really care for, and totally embrace parts that I love. So, ultimately, I guess I don't have too much to really complain about.

[–]antjanus 1 point2 points ago

Damnit, i just wrote this page long analysis and explanation of what I was going to say and than I pressed backspace without being clicked on the field. So pissed right now.

I was going to say, it'd be cool not to have Tattooine featured in half of the SW books, a blatantly fantastic planet without any explanation as to how it keeps oxygen in its atmosphere whatsoever o.o I'd love to see other races developed with their own particular RICH culture, science, and everything else. It seems just as bad as saying that all Americans eat cheeseburgers, are fat, fart on planes, and want to take over the world (some of them are actually vegan, a lot are thin and fit, and some can hold their gas in :) ). And I'm sure each race, each planet will have its own countries, tribes, nations, and beliefs. I'm sure that's hard to handle because that's just "too much", but I'd kill for some diversity!

Anyways, I do see Star Wars as this "Mythological" story, problem is, there are a hundred Homers retelling everything everyone can ask for. Which is cool. Ahhh, I'm getting lost in my point, I wish I had the previous iteration of what I wrote.

Anyways, I love star wars, and I love the EU no matter how much I bitch about it, and I'll definitely keep reading the books that come out :)

By the way, the reason why I suggested 1K years is because that gives the SW universe sufficient amount of time to reboot. Perhaps experience a cultural revolution, industrial-type revolution, rehash things together. Blow up tattooine maybe (I'm really sick of it, sorry). Maybe 5K, or whatever. Just to keep that distant, fond memory of the past and move forward.

As far as the amount of time passed, if you check out LoTR http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline_of_Arda#c._30000:_Years_of_the_Sun time line, you go through thousands and thousands of years without much of change really. :)

[–]Arrakiv 0 points1 point ago

Oh man, I hate it when that happens. I've done that so many times, too...

You, sir, have corrected my foolish lack of knowledge on Middle Earth. I guess 30k years is about right there, too. ;-)

Over all, I pretty much do agree with what you're saying. Regarding what you were saying about races, too... I think that's a good point. I was thinking about that last night. Technically what we know about most races are their stereotypes and not necessarily every aspect of their society (generally). It would just be fun to actually see some of that diversity instead of constantly seeing the stereotypes all the time. That, of course, is pretty par for the course in a lot of SciFi and Fantasy though.

Despite what I said before, I do think the 1000 years in the future thing has merit. I've actually thought it was a neat proposition before. While I don't think it would "fix" the universe necessarily, it would at least give a starting point to begin fleshing things out more without having to worry about the past quite as much. Of course, then I'd have to accept all that Vong nonsense, but that's just my personal biases. ;-)

As an aside, I know "Wars" in in the title, but does everything always have to revolve around giant, galactic-scale conflicts? Not even just Jedi and Sith, but like... in general. I mean, I like the whole massive scale conflict thing (I'm a SW fan in the first place, right?), but if we're wanting to see the universe grow a bit deeper, can't we have a few smaller scale conflicts? I think that, if anything, would help to actually explore things in greater depth.

[–]angryemokid 0 points1 point ago

I think the original idea for kotor was to sort of give them room to create their own version of the galaxy. Too bad someone walked in the room and said, "We need a Millenium Falcon, a wookie, a protocol droid, and an astro droid"

[–]Arrakiv 0 points1 point ago

Yeah, I seem to remember Bioware making a big deal about that. To an extent it held true. The storyline they used wouldn't have worked nearly as well if it were set during the GCW. However, they kept everything too similar to the movies for it to really feel like it was actually set that far back in the past.

That said, I don't think they really had a lot of options. They used a lot of stuff like that to ensure that it felt like "Star Wars" and what Star Wars is to a lot of people is something that includes those four very things.

[–]Billmurrionaire 2 points3 points ago

Well here's one possible reason: people like me.

It was impossible to find flaws in a fictional world that I wanted so badly to exist - so badly, I even told my younger brother it did. When I started discovering books and comics that expanded upon just the original 3 movies, my 10 year old self would shit a ginormous brick of joy any time it referenced some small detail from the movie. We loved anything that provided history or an explanation to the stuff I thought only me and my brother noticed.

I loved those moments. I appreciated them more than most kids would and I know damn well that I appreciated them more than my adult self would.

I can still remember telling my brother what Han meant when he said "kessel run". We thought it was the coolest thing in the world. The next day, all the neighborhood boys raced their bikes through our very own suburban "kessel run."

So when some kid like I used to be discovers that Bothans are actually a stealthy type of alien, instead of thinking "that's dumb... a whole race of spies...", he'll probably race to tell his brother or friends that he knows why the word "Bothans" was used in the movie. Then those kids will spend the next 3 hours pretending to be Bothan spies stealing "Classified Imperial Documents" from their sister's closet.

Yeah, it's simple, short-sighted, full of flaws, and unnecessary for many people. Especially because it opens a Pandora's box of loop holes and more questions. At the same time, I can't just run into my back yard and transplant myself to Hoth or a moon of Endor and swing my wiffle bat at imaginary storm troopers like I could when I was a kid*, so do I really need ridiculously thorough explanations of props and filler words? I'd probably find the flaws in those, anyways.

*I mean I could, but that sort of thing just isn't as fun as it once was. Not to mention, I don't have enough drugs and my girlfriend would hate me.

[–]throwaway_for_keeps 0 points1 point ago

TL;DR - it's fun.

[–]psychobilly1 2 points3 points ago

I'm going to really agree on the Bothan thing. I hate it too...

[–]slinky317 2 points3 points ago

One thing in particular that bothers me is how every little detail of the original movies has to be exaggerated into something canonical. The technology of the galaxy has not really changed or improved in THOUSANDS of years since the beginning of the Republic? The Imperial soldiers are still wearing basically the same uniforms, and flying basically the same ships for millennia?

Well, it may be the Old Republic, but it's Star Wars... and it has to look like Star Wars. And there's a little bit if suspension of disbelief here... if I'm willing to accept the Force and lightsabers and all that, I'll accept that technology didn't really move or advance.

That being said, I hate the way the Jedi are the prominent figures in almost all the Star Wars movies, games, etc. I mean, there are only supposed to be what, like a couple hundred of them across the galaxy? Why do they pop up EVERYWHERE?

I'd like to see a live action TV show following a smuggler Han Solo-esque character that rarely sees Jedi. Sure, throw them in every now and then, but I want to see the life of a normal day-to-day spacer in the SW universe. Like Firefly meets Star Wars.

[–]EverGlow89 1 point2 points ago

I'd like to see a live action TV show following a smuggler Han Solo-esque character that rarely sees Jedi.

That's exactly what they're planning.

Reference

[–]slinky317 2 points3 points ago

I'll believe it when I see it. If Lucas is involved, he'll find a way to slip Jedi in there, even if they were all supposedly killed after Episode III.

[–]krea 0 points1 point ago

Actually there were close to 200 jedi survivors after order 66.

[–]antjanus 0 points1 point ago

Well, it was said in some of the books & games that Jedi numbered in thousands at some point, even hundreds of thousands. During the battle against the Brotherhood of Darkness, the Sith and Jedi battled it out in thousands upon thousands all over the galaxy. Granted, it's nothing in comparison of the billions/trillions living there but they were prominent figures. I think of them as politicians. Everyone knows who they are, they are powerful and prominent but small in number. But agreed, it shouldn't be an everyday thing that people encounter jedi.

[–]polynomials[S] 0 points1 point ago

I agree there needs to be a certain continuity, but that doesn't mean everything needs to look exactly as it did in the originals. I mentioned the Boba Fett thing in another comment here, but it's like, when I saw that the bounty hunter class in the Old Republic is shown wearing the same kind of helmet that Boba Fett does in the movies, I nearly turned the game off. It looked to me like that is something Boba Fett would have had custom designed, but even if not, not every bounty hunter ever is going to have a helmet that looks like that. But, I guess, that's the official bounty hunter helmet of Star Wars?

I don't know where I'm going with this, I just wanted to hear people's thoughts on it.

[–]willonawoods 0 points1 point ago

It looked to me like that is something Boba Fett would have had custom designed, but even if not, not every bounty hunter ever is going to have a helmet that looks like that. But, I guess, that's the official bounty hunter helmet of Star Wars?

It's Mandolorian armor. Boba didn't create it, he wore it because his father wore it. The Clone Wars addresses this when ObI-Wan mentions Jango to some Mandolorians they reply with something along the lines of "We do not know how he procured the armor, but he is not Mandolorian."

The design of the armor goes back years years before the prequels.

[–]polynomials[S] 0 points1 point ago

Right. But then that doesn't explain why every time they show a bounty hunter, even from thousands of years ago, they are also wearing Mandalorian armor. Are all human bounty hunters Mandalorian? Does an entire race of people only wear one type of helmet? These are the kinds questions I always find myself asking. And it really gets in the way of my enjoyment.

[–]Sifo-Dyas 1 point2 points ago

The only "awful" thing about star wars is the obnoxious, hipster trend of hate for more than half of the whole thing that these smug pretentious internet bullys try to call themselves fans of!

IF you really aren't trolling than there is a REASON why you are sitting here on a star wars subreddit wondering out loud why you/people in general like star wars.

I suggest you unlearn and forget the propaganda that the internet has taught you about bashing SW and learn how to actually enjoy and APPRECIATE the Saga as a whole and then maybe when there are MILLIONS of people all over the country watching TPM on the big screen in 3D feb 10th you can be enjoying it with them.

This goes for all the hatboys/fanboys/bashers here and i mean that as genuinely and sincerely as possible.

[–]thetensor 2 points3 points ago

So you're a fan of all of Lucas's Star Wars creations, then? Including the Ewoks TV movies and the Holiday Special?

Hint: if it takes an act of will to convince yourself you like something ("...learn how to actually enjoy...") it's probably not very good.

BTW, hating the prequels doesn't make you a hipster -- it's the majority opinion, after all. True Star Wars hipsters are the ones who, in hindsight, think Lucas lost his way after The Empire Strikes Back.

[–]Sifo-Dyas 1 point2 points ago*

The reason why (for some people) it would take such an act of will is because if a person has been basically brainwashed by forced memes, hate propaganda and a trend of tactical ignorance then that person must learn unbiased truth about the thing he has been pitted against.

These people must then ask themselves if it is really even star wars that they are a fan of or if it is just "bashing star wars" that they are fans of. Seriously. The only thing that hateboys seem to show genuine enthusiasm for is when they can gather round and bash and bitch and troll.

And hating the whole first half of the saga or "the prequelz" as hateboys like to say, does make you a hipster because the FACT is that TPM (as well as all 3 prequels) smashed box office records around the world, started many trends with the groundbreaking, innovative effects techniques invented/pioneered by lucas and then set world records for home video sales & network television viewings EXACTLY like the OT to the point where it is almost creepy how history repeated itself. 13 years later TPM is STILL popular, STILL talked about everywhere, still controversial, and about to be re-released for a 2nd time on the big screen and shown in a new format.

If you were wondering why i said 2nd time its because the following summer AFTER 1999 TPM was brought BACK to theaters by (none other than) popular demand and EVERY RED CENT of the money it made for that summer was donated to charity. Something else the hateboys like to forget and play down. This is because Lucas is a liberal philanthropist who created SW to preserve old fashion myths and teach good morals to kids using imagination and wonder. Ya know...the big bad lucas.

So yea i think i am a fan of all his creations or at least as much of a fan as say...stephen colbert, jon stewart, peter jackson and most of the historians and anthropologists who praise the PT in the history channel documentary " star wars:the legacy revealed".

[–]thetensor 1 point2 points ago

The reason why (for some people) it would take such an act of will is because if a person has been basically brainwashed by forced memes, hate propaganda and a trend of tactical ignorance then that person must learn unbiased truth about the thing he has been pitted against.

When I and my friends walked out of the theater in 1999, I was said, "Well, that was pretty good...I guess?" and they replied, "Oh, God, that was terrible!" No propaganda needed. My opinion was then what it is now: if TPM hadn't been a Star Wars movie, I would have considered it a fun-but-flawed SF/SFX film, but as a Star Wars movie it was a big disappointment.

These people must then ask themselves if it is really even star wars that they are a fan of or if it is just "bashing star wars" that they are fans of. Seriously. The only thing that hateboys seem to show genuine enthusiasm for is when they can gather round and bash and bitch and troll.

I've asked myself, and the answer is: I'm a fan of Star Wars, but the prequels were (in order): bad, pretty bad, and almost good.

And hating the whole first half of the saga or "the prequelz" as hateboys like to say, does make you a hipster because the FACT is that TPM (as well as all the prequels) smashed box office records around the world, started many trends with the groundbreaking, innovative effects techniques invented/pioneered by lucas and then set world records for home video sales & network television viewings EXACTLY like the OT to the point where it is almost creepy how history repeated itself. 13 years later TPM is STILL popular, STILL talked about everywhere, still controversial, and about to be re-released for a 2nd time on the big screen and shown in a new format.

...but it still isn't, you know, very good. No matter how many times you type "hateboys". Which is an adorable tactic, by the way. Would you say it's more "brainwashing by forced meme" or "hate propaganda and a trend of tactical ignorance"?

If you were wondering why i said 2nd time its because the following summer AFTER 1999 TPM was brought BACK to theaters by (none other than) popular demand and EVERY RED CENT of the money it made for that summer was donated to charity. This is because Lucas is a liberal philanthropist who created SW to preserve old fashion myths and teach good morals to kids using imagination and wonder. Ya know...the big bad lucas.

I'm sure he's a nice man. He just shouldn't be writing and directing movies, especially Star Wars movies.

[–]willonawoods 0 points1 point ago

BTW, hating the prequels doesn't make you a hipster -- it's the majority opinion, after all.

Box office receipts tell a different story. Butthurt fanboys on the internet does not equal "the majority opinion". All you Lucas haters act like the world collectively decided that the prequels sucked. They didn't. The Star Wars prequels are some of the most successful films of all time. So please SHUT UP.

[–]thetensor 0 points1 point ago

Box office receipts tell a different story.

If you look at the all-time domestic box office list (adjusted for inflation), you see:

Star Wars: 2nd
Empire: 12th
Jedi: 15th
Menace: 21st
Clones: 85th (ouch!)
Sith: 58th

The Phantom Menace, riding a huge swell of anticipation for the first new Star Wars movie since the OT, didn't do as well as Jedi even after 15 years of population growth and constant-dollar ticket price increases. After that, there was a huge drop-off for Attack of the Clones. Revenge of the Sith did somewhat better (probably because it was actually a better movie), but still made much less than the OT.

Lucas still made a fortune, make no mistake. But the ticket-buying public noticed the difference in quality.

Butthurt fanboys on the internet does not equal "the majority opinion". All you Lucas haters act like the world collectively decided that the prequels sucked. They didn't. The Star Wars prequels are some of the most successful films of all time.

I'm not going to do any more of your homework for you. Go look at the box office numbers, critical ratings, or audience ratings for the Star Wars movies on any of a number of web sites (IMDB, Metacritic, Rotten Tomatoes) and see what they tell you. The collective opinion of the world (not just Star Wars fans) is that the prequels were perhaps not terrible, but mediocre, especially when you compare them to the well-loved original trilogy.

[–]willonawoods 0 points1 point ago*

Fine, you're right. I now hate the prequels...

You don't like the prequels, some people do. What is so hard to get about that? You can throw box office reciepts, reviews and even Plinkett's dumbass at me and I will still love the prequels.

Being in the top 100 highest grossing films is a smash hit. Sure, maybe it didn't do as well as the OT but consider the time. Way more competition now, and they were still hits.

Lucas-haters are always trying to convince people who like them that the prequels suck. Why? Are you that upset that some people like movies you don't?

Also your statement of "ouch!" for the AOTC box-office total is hilarious. It made more money than the final Harry Potter movie and Terminator 2. Hardly sounds like the bomb you wish it was.

[–]thetensor 1 point2 points ago

You don't like the prequels, some people do. What is so hard to get about that? You can throw box office reciepts, reviews and even Plinkett's dumbass at me and I will still love the prequels.

Oh, you can have your opinions. I'm not the one calling people "butthurt" and "haters" for disagreeing with me.

Lucas-haters are always trying to convince people who like them that the prequels suck. Why? Are you that upset that some people like movies you don't?

Ah, I can tell from your whining that the truth is beginning to sink in. Give in to your dissatisfaction! Here's, I'll give you an exercise that will help you cast off your mental chains. Using only material present in the theatrical releases -- no ex post facto EU rationalizations allowed -- explain why Naboo was invaded in TPM, whose idea it was, what the parties involved expected to gain, how they expected events to unfold, and whether they actually achieved their goals. Pay special attention to Sidious: did he intend for the invasion to succeed or fail? Did he want the treaty signed or not?

[–]willonawoods -1 points0 points ago*

Star Wars is more than 6 films, it's a franchise. The EU is part of that.

But I do have to respond to this idiocy:

explain why Naboo was invaded in TPM, whose idea it was, what the parties involved expected to gain, how they expected events to unfold, and whether they actually achieved their goals. Pay special attention to Sidious: did he intend for the invasion to succeed or fail? Did he want the treaty signed or not?

Why are we supposed to know what a shadowy dark figure's ultimate plan is? It's called "The Phantom Menace" for crying out loud.

[–]thetensor 1 point2 points ago

Well, I tried.

[–]Yunners 1 point2 points ago

Dont feel too bad, the last time I tried the same argument as you, the Nazi party was used in a retort, so I wouldnt bother in the future.

[–]thetensor 2 points3 points ago

Well, in fairness, not liking somebody's MOSTEST FAVORITE movie does sound like something the Nazis would do.

[–]polynomials[S] 0 points1 point ago

I'm sure there are people like that. I'm not one of them. I am genuinely wanting to find out what people think about my concerns and I was hoping someone would point me to some of the better material to check out. I meant to edit my original post to say that but I'm lazy.

[–]Petroselinum 1 point2 points ago

In terms of the EU stuff, I think it's a result of trying to base hundreds of thousands of pages (or hours) of content on essentially six hours of film (pre-PT). Add a good dose of regrettable sci-fi tropes, and that's what you get.

[–]polynomials[S] 0 points1 point ago

Yeah I get that. But I mean they have thousands of absurdly creative people working on this stuff; I think it's okay if someone has a new idea or wants to take things in a new direction at some point.

[–]Petroselinum 0 points1 point ago*

It's definitely a trade-off. If it's too different, you end up with something that's not recognizably Star Wars. One purpose of even having an EU is to explain all of those intriguing details from the films - needing to know things that ruin the wonder of it all is kind of what being a Star Wars nerd is all about. I agree with your criticisms, but I've found enough good, creative content between books, comics, and the Clone Wars TV series to be too down on the SW creative direction as a whole.

[–]jigby61 -1 points0 points ago

Oh come on, the prequels aren't THAT bad.

[–]polynomials[S] 2 points3 points ago

That's what I said until I watched that series of reviews. Then I realized that the reason I didn't hate them was because I hadn't even bother to try making any sense of the plot or dialogue. If you try to do that, as the reviewer does, they are quickly revealed as shamefully bad. But that's my opinion.

[–]jigby61 1 point2 points ago

And you have your right to express it.

[–]throwaway_for_keeps 0 points1 point ago

If you didn't realize that until you watched the reviews, I wouldn't say it's a fault of the movies. You saw the movies and thought "that was good" or maybe "that wasn't great, but I didn't hate it," but then you saw these reviews and now they're the worst movies ever? You could make a line-by-line nitpicky review of anything and convince people that something they used to like is awful.

[–]Vratix 0 points1 point ago

I hated AoTC. TPM and RotS both had some fairly redeeming qualities and I am still of the opinion that they could both be great movies with a handful of subtle minor changes.
Watching/reading different reviews made me notice more things that didn't really make sense and, while they did lower the overall enjoyment of re-watching TPM and RotS, you're probably right that if I didn't see the reviews (or talk to anyone about it ever) I would still enjoy them more than I do currently.

I don't know if you just want to play devil's advocate (and you tacitly agree) so you're just pointing out something you consider to be a logical ambiguity but people are still greatly influenced by their environment and their ability to learn. Is your favorite book currently the same book as when you first learned to read? Seems doubtful because you learned more about reading and your perception changed. A friend of mine thought Jango Fett was pretty cool until I explained the Jaster Mereel-Boba Fett relationship to him. He looked into it more and now he detests the entire concept of Jango Fett. He appreciated the novelty of something until he found out how much cooler it could have been and how the ret-con put into place ruined something else. So really, if reading a review of any movie doesn't change your perception of it one way or another, doesn't that mean you are unwilling to learn?

[–]polynomials[S] 0 points1 point ago

So I'm not allowed to change my opinion of movies? I don't get it.

And I'd would say to watch the reviews. It's not really nitpicking if your main criticisms are that none of the dialogue or action or plot or character development makes any sense whatsoever, due to unabashed commercial cynicism and good old fashioned laziness.

[–]Knorssman 0 points1 point ago

well with the bothans, is it too much to say that their culture puts heavy weight on espionage and political intrigue?

what REALLY gets to me is when a profession, smuggling, is automatically being considered a good guy, what the heck??!?! smuggling is about being a criminal and breaking the law, but since han solo was a smuggler...almost all smugglers that you hear about in the stories are good guys in some way

[–]berychance 0 points1 point ago

It's a pretty common thing in stories not just Star Wars.

[–]Arrakiv 0 points1 point ago

And most bounty hunters are traditionally bad guys, even though technically they're people who are hunting down wanted criminals to help put them to justice.

To be fair though, in the OT, the government was sort of presented as the bad guys. So, criminal smugglers being good and bounty hunters helping out the evil government are bad.

[–]Knorssman 1 point2 points ago

it got to me when it continued with other characters in the New Republic, when the government was made up of mostly good guys, smugglers were still ok lol

[–]Arrakiv 0 points1 point ago

Heh, yeah, agree 100%. It sort of worked with Karrde I thought, but that sure didn't stop at all, did it?

[–]Knorssman 1 point2 points ago

having another "lovable rogue" isn't that bad, but it got to the point..."ok guys its time the smugglers banded together to fight bad guys" then "oh the empire and new republic are done fighting? we are gonna make a 'smuggler's alliance' to work like a transparency 3rd party between the empire and new republic, you guys are cool with that right?" lol

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