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[–]mindbleach 35 points36 points ago

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"We figured out that we don't have any real competition and can go back to fucking customers for every byte like back in the good days."

[–]elustran 9 points10 points ago

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They never stopped - it's called text messaging.

[–]Taladar 27 points28 points ago

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Isn't it funny how they try to publish those "you have already lost, this will come, you might as well not fight it" articles every few months?

[–]yep_yeppers 3 points4 points ago

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I don't know why I read Giz or Engadget anymore, they both say the same things.

[–]fuzzo[S] 8 points9 points ago

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"NEWS FLASH! You can buy your iPad Right Now Instead Of Waiting Like a Commoner!"

[–]noroom 1 point2 points ago

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I stopped reading Gizmodo when they did this.

[–]mingdamirthless 19 points20 points ago

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So they are saying that these expensive, piece of shit plans that we currently have are TOO GOOD FOR US?

GMAFB.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point ago

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I'm thinking it has more to do with how much bandwidth these carriers are able to provide. By selling all these smart devices, I think att, verizon, etc have all written checks that they can't cash.

Edit: haha. Just realized I was one of those people who found a 3 day old article and made a comment as if anyone would read it. Enjoy your blast to the past!

[–]mingdamirthless 0 points1 point ago

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At least you edited that in and posted it instead of simply deleting it like I would've done.

You're much more industrious than I.

Also, you have a point.

[–]rumpusroom 12 points13 points ago

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So my costs will go down if I don't use much data, right? Right?

[–]leokennis 8 points9 points ago

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Right...

[–]WinterAyars 3 points4 points ago

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It'll probably be $X/month + $X/unit.

[–]vermicin 5 points6 points ago

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where X is what you currently pay for unlimited.

[–]slut 18 points19 points ago

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Its a shame that they like, totally insist on signing this contract that currently grants me unlimited usage.

[–]WinterAyars 13 points14 points ago

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That'll change. It's not like the contracts bind them in any way >_>

[–]slut 0 points1 point ago

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Well it does bind them into keeping the same plan you signed up for or voiding the contract. If they choose to void the contract and Sprint and T-Mobile still remain unlimited, I forsee this being very good for them.

[–]rq60 1 point2 points ago

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So will they pay me an ETF when they cancel my contract?

[–]takeda64 3 points4 points ago

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Where do you live? they'll just update their contract, when you inquire about why it was changed you'll learn that you had option to cancel your service without EFT but you didn't.

Welcome to the world of monopoly!

[–]SarahC 1 point2 points ago

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Well it does bind them into keeping the same plan you signed up for or voiding the contract.

But it says they can change terms and conditions in the contract itself at any time!

[–]WinterAyars 0 points1 point ago

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Yeah, i'm just being cynical about it...

[–]superdug 6 points7 points ago

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Articles like this kill me. There is no such thing now as an unlimited data plan for any of the networks. All of them have at least a 5GB per month download limit. This is a response to the FTC asking the carriers "How do you limit something that is unlimited?" and the response of "It's unlimited as to when you can use those 5GB."

However, that's basically just a "What? We call it Simply Everything (tm), unlimited text, data, voice, but you can only use 5GB worth of data." I don't see what's so confusing about that?

Metered usage is stupid, it always has been, for anything digital. As you make things faster, people will download more, because they can. Cellphone companies in general are getting tired of these "game changers" that keep popping up. For instance, Motorola Droid on Verizon? That company is the most nefarious when it comes to hamstringing cellular phones, but knew if it wanted to stay competitive with Sprint and AT&T that they'd have to go that route.

What they're doing is trying to milk the people paying the bills as much as they can. The ETF's are getting lowered, the subsidy of phones is not paying out as much as it used to, and people are putting more stress on their infrastructure every day.

You innovate or you die.

So Cellphone Providers in the states, your move, you may think you have the market in a chokehold, but I will smile the day you find out just how wrong you are.

EDIT: grammar (sort of)

[–]dramamoose 0 points1 point ago

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For the record, I have run up against the AT&T 5gb limit before. After I hit 5gb, I got a text message saying that I was in violation of my contract and to 'restrict usage' of my data plan. I think I ended the month at around 6gb. I never had any problem or was required to pay anything.

The difference is a hard vs. soft limit. With the soft limit, you get a nastygram (like I did). With a hard limit, its like going over your minutes; you start getting charged another rate after that point.

[–]ckwing -2 points-1 points ago

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Metered usage is stupid, it always has been, for anything digital. As you make things faster, people will download more, because they can.

This is precisely why metered usage makes sense.

Look, at the backbone of our communications infrastructure, metered usage is the way the business works. As long as that's the case, consumer-facing ISPs can only offer "unlimited" to the extent they're willing to play funny games like charging a price that cushions them against excessive usage, kicking off the greediest users, capping the "unlimited" plans, etc.

But the trend, clearly, is that the gap between the heaviest and lightest users has been, and will continue, to grow wider and wider. The most bandwidth-intensive applications are still just hitting early adopters. What happens as 1080p VOD streaming becomes more and more ubiquitous? Right now the only provider of 1080p VOD is, believe it or not, XBox Live. That will change. Does it really make sense to keep clinging to this one-price-for-all paradigm? Is that really fair to the majority that currently make light usage? I'm sure the heavy bandwidth users are thrilled that their cost is only $40-50/month because the majority is subsidizing them, but frankly that sucks for the majority, which is unnecessarily paying $30-40/month while struggling economically, because the minority is streaming HD video and playing games on XBox Live all day, etc.

Now, as another user echoed, if prices for some go up, prices for others sure as hell should come down from the current rates! And that, I guarantee you, will not happen immediately. But it will happen over time, competitive market forces eventually seep through every crack in the market.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points ago

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Look, at the backbone of our communications infrastructure, metered usage is the way the business works.

What? No it isn't. Nobody beyond consumers and tiny businesses buys usage by the byte - you buy it by the megabit/sec.

Right now the only provider of 1080p VOD is, believe it or not, XBox Live.

Amazon Video on Demand. Netflix to compatible equipment.

Does it really make sense to keep clinging to this one-price-for-all paradigm?

... yes? It's been working fine for the past 10 years. ISPs insist upon metered billing because they aren't happy with the already-exorbitant profits they are making from data sales (go look at a few 10-Ks.) They want to squeeze the maximum amount out of each customer and not charge what the service is worth. Even with the mythical "bandwidth hog", ISPs still have incredible profits - smart ISPs like Comcast are using them to upgrade their network to DOCSIS 3, further increasing available bandwidth; whereas dumb ISPs like AT&T are stuffing them in the bank and going "LA LA LA LA LA" when told their network sucks.

if prices for some go up, prices for others sure as hell should come down from the current rates!

hahahahahahahahahahaha. I'm fairly certain there's never been a telecom company dropping their prices in the history of the industry. (Note: giving you 'more service' for the same price is not dropping the price.) What will happen is exactly what someone said upthread the last time you started spouting off this 'free market will save everything' garbage: you'll pay exactly what you pay now plus $x/byte, just to line the carriers' pockets.

[–]ckwing 1 point2 points ago

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What? No it isn't. Nobody beyond consumers and tiny businesses buys usage by the byte - you buy it by the megabit/sec.

Fair enough, you're right, Tier 2 providers pay for the size/speed of their pipe, not for amount of traffic.

Amazon Video on Demand. Netflix to compatible equipment.

This is not correct. Neither Netflix nor Amazon VOD stream 1080p to ANY device, unless you're counting Netflix because they're a partner on XBL, which I already noted.

Does it really make sense to keep clinging to this one-price-for-all paradigm?

... yes? It's been working fine for the past 10 years. ISPs insist upon metered billing because

I'm not specifically advocated for metered billing here, I'm advocating for tiered pricing based on usage, however that gets determined. I don't see how it makes for an efficient market to have ISPs charging at an individual level the way they get charged by the Tier 1 providers. Most customers use a tiny sliver of their ISP pipe 99% of the day. A small minority of customers makes liberal use of their pipe a majority of the day. Bottom line, if an ISP were to cut off the top 10% of its users, it could lower its cost by reducing the size of its Tier 1 pipe, of which the size is determined based on aggregate peak usage, and then it could drop prices for everyone else. You say they wouldn't because they're greedy. I say they WOULD because they're greedy. An ISP that shuts out high-capacity users could offer a lower price that would help them gain market share and so they might actually make more money with 10 million customers paying $15/month than 5 million customers paying $20/month.

hahahahahahahahahahaha. I'm fairly certain there's never been a telecom company dropping their prices in the history of the industry.

I think industries where there's substantial barrier to entry (i.e. infrastructure investment) tend not to be "race to the bottom" industries. The ISPs are in this for the long haul, and as you said, the smart ones are reinvesting excess profits in infrastructure improvements. Having said that, don't blame businesses for consumer ignorance. You can make fun of AT&T for not investing more in infrastructure, but the fact of the matter is that their prices are roughly the same as Verizon and yet, so far, there has not been a mass exodus from AT&T to Verizon. Now there IS in my opinion a growing consensus in the consumer market that Verizon has the superior network, and that is no doubt starting to make a dent in AT&T, but one still has to wonder if, say, Verizon would have been more successful putting those profits into an iphone exclusivity deal years ago instead of spending it on their infrastructure. Consumers vote with their wallets, after all. As a Blackberry user and iphone hater who appreciates a good network, I'm glad Verizon went the direction they did, personally.

[–]LapsedPacifist -2 points-1 points ago

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If demand is that high, providers need to provide more supply.

[–]ckwing 0 points1 point ago

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You have this backwards. Increasing supply costs money. The ISP doesn't want to pay it, and the consumer doesn't want to pay it. That's how we know we're at the right place on the supply/demand curve.

Ask consumers if they want to pay more for more speed/bandwidth. You won't find many takers. In fact, some ISPs do offer higher-speed/bandwidth options for an extra amount. I don't think it's all that popular an option, but they do offer it.

[–]LapsedPacifist -1 points0 points ago

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As has been pointed out multiple times in this thread, part of the costs we're paying are artificial, namely text messages. How does that factor into where we are on the curve?

[–]ckwing 0 points1 point ago

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There is no such thing as an "artificial cost" for a consumer, because consumer prices reflect demand, which has an indirect, not a direct, relationship to the cost of supply.

Most consumers are willing to pay the current market prices for text messaging, as evidenced by the fact that they enough of them choose to buy TXT packages at high prices rather than say "screw it." At the current prices, yes, its' quite lucrative for the ISPs since their added cost for SMS messaging is close to nothing (I say "added cost" because it sounds a bit myopic to just say "cost" since they can only provide SMS messaging at low/no cost because of other investments they've already made). But SMS messaging is part of a bundle of services the wireless companies sell. Verizon and AT&T both just lowered the price of their unlimited plans in response to Sprint doing the same. If you were to take away the lucrative SMS messaging plans, or reduced overage rates, might this have affected the feasibility of their price gambit on unlimited plans? My point is, these companies' products and services don't exist in a bubble. A wireless carrier has a certain amount of profit that comes in, and they make a blanket decision about where to reinvest, where to lower prices, where to just pocket profits and keep prices and infrastructure the stagnant. It doesn't matter where those numbers come from.

[–]LapsedPacifist 0 points1 point ago

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So charging a premium for texting offsets their bandwidth costs, I get that. But clearly the carriers who recently dropped their prices could afford to do that, right?

Here's an honest question, is the ATT iPhone plan about the maximum consumers will pay for service monthly?

[–]ckwing 0 points1 point ago

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Here's an honest question, is the ATT iPhone plan about the maximum consumers will pay for service monthly?

My god, I certainly hope so :)

So charging a premium for texting offsets their bandwidth costs, I get that. But clearly the carriers who recently dropped their prices could afford to do that, right?

Well, clearly it was, in some calculation or another, the most profitable thing to do in response to price drops from the competition. Presumably it was profitable for Sprint, at least. As for AT&T and Verizon, all we can really assume is that dropping prices was a better option than losing customers.

[–]ike6116 11 points12 points ago

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Shit like this holds back progress, it's this kind of thought process that makes broadband data rates in the US horrific.

[–]lorductape 18 points19 points ago

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Price Fixing.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points ago

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"I don't give a damn about the Japanese!"

[–]bowling4meth 11 points12 points ago

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When polar bears hunt, they crouch down by a hole in the ice and wait for a seal to pop up. They keep one paw over their nose so that they blend in, because they've got those black noses. They'd blend in perfectly if not for the nose. So the question is, how do they know their noses are black? From looking at other polar bears? Do they see their reflections in the water and think, "I'd be invisible if not for that." That seems like a lot of thinking for a bear.

[–]probably2high 2 points3 points ago

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Yea, man.

[–]thant 1 point2 points ago

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Contrary to a legend among native hunters, polar bears do not cover their black noses while lying in wait for seals. Canadian biologist Ian Stirling, who has spent several thousand hours watching polar bears hunt, has never seen this behavior. Nor have other scientists.

Polar Bears International

[–]bowling4meth 0 points1 point ago

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I was quoting The Informant! - a bizarre but interesting film by Steven Soderbergh starring Matt Damon as the parents also seemed to reference the film. If you haven't seen it I'd highly recommend it.

But thanks for the polar bear facts, that's saved me from looking stupid :)

[–]WinterAyars 1 point2 points ago

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Yeaaaaaaaah... well... since VOIP is going to take over it's the only way they can continue extracting unlimited free money from consumers. Expect $1/megabyte >_>

[–]dkinmn 10 points11 points ago

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Bullshit.

One enterprising company will keep unlimited data, and everyone will flock to that company.

This is how competitive markets work.

[–]ArmandoPenblade 28 points29 points ago

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Just like one enterprising company has kept their texting rate affordable because it doesn't actually cost them anything to process text messages?

[–]dkinmn 9 points10 points ago

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I have unlimited data and unlimited texting with Sprint for a substantially lower price than similar plans with other companies.

I think that counts.

[–]WinterAyars 2 points3 points ago

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Except that not everyone has flocked to that company and it hasn't really affected the marketplace... And you're still paying something for what essentially costs zero dollars.

[–]ckwing 7 points8 points ago

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[–]dkinmn 5 points6 points ago

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How can you tell that it hasn't affected the marketplace? On which data are basing this claim?

If we got our undies in a bundle every time we were charged more than the absolute cost of a product or service, our undies would be forever bundled.

[–]WinterAyars 0 points1 point ago

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How can you tell that it hasn't affected the marketplace? On which data are basing this claim?

What is this, you're calling for some sort of meaningful economic data? Don't be ridiculous.

If we got our undies in a bundle every time we were charged more than the absolute cost of a product or service, our undies would be forever bundled.

So... are you suggesting texting isn't a scam? Or what?

[–]dkinmn 1 point2 points ago

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Texting is no more scammy than movie popcorn or mp3s or anything else you can think of.

If you don't like the price, don't pay it. If enough people don't pay it, the price will likely change. If everyone keeps paying, but bitches about it, nothing will happen.

[–]richlizard24 -1 points0 points ago

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Movie popcorn is so expensive because that is where the theaters make their profit. Theaters make near zero profit on movie ticket sales.

[–]dkinmn 1 point2 points ago

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No, it's so expensive because people are willing to pay for it. If they weren't, then it wouldn't matter what the theaters wanted to charge.

[–]richlizard24 -1 points0 points ago

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Slim profit margins from ticket sales and profits from concessions.
http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/alnga/iama_movie_theatre_manager_ama/c0i93rq

[–]you_are_wrong 0 points1 point ago

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Why'd you downmod me? Answer my question.

[–]you_are_wrong -1 points0 points ago

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I just went to their website and couldn't find what you're talking about. Looks like it costs something similar (within $10) to verizon plans or ATT.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points ago

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The wireless industry is not terribly competitive.

[–][deleted] ago

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[deleted]

[–][deleted] 10 points11 points ago

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hahaha

[–]xsvfan 1 point2 points ago

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Like MetroPCS? I don't really know anyone that uses that company even though it's a lot cheaper and everything is unlimited.

[–]richlizard24 4 points5 points ago

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Because they have shit phones.

[–]fuzzo[S] 0 points1 point ago

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right, except that the one keeping the unlimited plan will be u.s. cellular.

[–]banchai 2 points3 points ago

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Please step in and save us, Google!!!

[–]nathansu 2 points3 points ago

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I seriously doubt it.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points ago

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This is unrelated but like half the editors at gizmodo are buying two fucking ipads. Are you serious?!

[–]humanzoo 5 points6 points ago

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Thanks Iphone users. You had to have every stupid little app to view your MRIs and to announce to ten different social networking sites that you're at Starbucks (again) with pics. I believe this is all your faults. :P

[–]takeda64 1 point2 points ago

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Ok so I'm using about 1GB / month, if they properly adjust it I'm fine with. i.e.

inf / $39.99 = 1 GB / x
x = (1 GB * $39.99) / inf

They do that kind of calculation when you switch your plan in the middle of a month if you want to increase the number of minutes, so it should be fine, right?

[–]teratomata 1 point2 points ago

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Honestly Gizmodo has either gotten really worry wartsome as of late and completely diminished in quality, or I am just noticing it because they dress it up really well.

[–]wuguwa 1 point2 points ago

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son of a bitch.

[–]ckwing 2 points3 points ago

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I say bring it on, for both wireless and home broadband ISPs. There's such a huge gap between the level of bandwidth different customers use, it only makes sense. I use my blackberry for email and very-occasional web surfing. The article is right-on when it parrots the hypothetical ISP question about why someone streaming Pandora all day long should pay the same as me.

Home broadband costs $30-50/month. Wireless data is $30-40/month. I have to pay an EXTRA $20/month to tether my laptop to my blackberry for the rare occasion I need that, but someone using more bandwidth on their phone than I use on my blackberry/laptop combined pays less.

The article gets it right on the other crucial point though: ISPs/wireless carriers need to come up with a way to not have this be a game of "gotcha." Don't make customers suffer for mis-estimating their data usage.

But yeah, if someone's just doing very light email/websurfing at home, they should probably pay like $10/month instead of $30.

[–]joshuajonah 6 points7 points ago

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640k is all anyone will ever need.

[–]syspig 1 point2 points ago

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Some of us unapologetic Luddites, have yet to see a reason to say "Hello".

[–]tardmrr 4 points5 points ago

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Doesn't using the internet (and more specifically reddit) disqualify you from the title "Luddite?"

[–]syspig 2 points3 points ago

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Don't be gittin' all uppity with me using your fancy-pants logic, young fella - I was spewing inaccurate rants long before you able to correct them.

[–]the_argus -1 points0 points ago

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Not having a phone that is capable does.

[–]hughk 0 points1 point ago

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Funnily enough, I live in Germany and the providers here cap you at around 4GB. Ok, they don't want you running p2p but that stops internet radio too.

[–]myhandleonreddit 0 points1 point ago

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why should the weekly email checker pay the same as the out-and-about Pandora and video streaming junkie

I know plenty of those weekly e-mail checkers and they love the fact that they can stream a video once in a while if they need to.

[–]strangerzero 0 points1 point ago

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Time to use some anti-trust laws to break-up these monopolies [again]

[–]devon223 0 points1 point ago

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Thank god I use T-mobile.

[–]timeshifter_ 0 points1 point ago

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Well then, the one carrier who resists the pressure of the rest and continues to offer a truly unlimited plan regardless of the corporate scheming will quickly become the most popular, won't it? Let's just hope there is a carrier like that...

[–]barryicide 5 points6 points ago

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Doubt it. Yeah, they'll lose 10% of their customer bases by doing this, but they'll extract 20% more profit from the rest of their customers. Once one provider does it, they realize they can all get away with it.

The same exact thing happened with text messaging. They all competed to drop their text messaging rates; 25 cents, no - 15 cents, no - 10 cents, just 5 cents!... then they realized "we could make so much money if we forced everyone onto unlimited texting plans" - they starting increasing their text messaging rates and decreased the text messages available from the low plans ($5 for 500 texts became $5 for 400 texts).

They're all a bunch of scum and realize they have an oligopoly on the market, so they can do no wrong because there is no true competition for their customers to turn to.

[–]sad_bug_killer -1 points0 points ago

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... in the US

[–]metageek -5 points-4 points ago

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I hate gizmodo. A short article divided into 6 pages, each about 2-3 paragraphs. The last page looks like it's just the author's email address. (I didn't have the patience to go see if there was anything after it.)

[–]SuperSumoYakuza 3 points4 points ago

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Well, I don't know if you are ranting about past experiences or if it is a browser based thing, but I use Chrome and I see the whole article in one page.

[–]plbogen 2 points3 points ago

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Same here in FF.

[–]metageek 0 points1 point ago

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This is using MicroB (Gecko-based, on Maemo). I suppose they could think that it's nice to send less data to a mobile browser; but--ah. Yes, that is what's happening: they automatically redirected me to their mobile site.

It's still badly designed. The comments show up at the bottom of each of the six pages, which means it doesn't save bandwidth even if I look at just two pages.

Admittedly, I now see that they've added an "entire article" link, which helps. That's new, though--probably not new since I read this article yesterday, but new in the past couple of months.

[–]SuperSumoYakuza 1 point2 points ago

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Oh man. I really hate that auto formatting for a mobile browser shit.

The worst is when you click on a direct link, and it refuses to take you to the article, and will only take you to their "mobile" front page. I run android on my mobile and fortunately I have a browser enhancement called "steel" for my chrome browser that lets me set my browser type to whatever I want. I always leave it set for "desktop" to avoid this kind of annoying shit.

Mobile browsers are getting more and more powerful. They need to treat them like regular browsers.

[–]myhandleonreddit -1 points0 points ago

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There are 11 line breaks in this story. It couldn't be spread out across 6 pages for anybody.